13 Reasons Not to Believe in God
Friendly Atheist has posted a list of 18 Unconvincing Arguments for God. Lists are always fun. Here’s my list of 13 reasons not to believe in God. These aren’t proofs that there is no God, but rather arguments for why you shouldn’t believe in God. This list is far from exhaustive, and isn’t meant to be.
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Lack of Evidence
There’s no evidence for God whatsoever. Sensible theists admit that their belief is founded on nothing but faith, but there are always those who claim to have evidence of irreducible complexity, healings, out-of-body experiences or other such stupid notions and treat them as evidence for the existence of their particular God. Don’t believe them. The truth is, if someone managed to prove God, it would be instant news on all news channels, through all media, everywhere. It would be an unprecedented landmark in human history.
Of course, there is absolutely no evidence at all. No idea of the holy or paranormal has ever stood up to skeptical enquiry, for good reason.
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Contradictions of Scripture
It’s bad enough that the various books that claim to be the word of God are in disagreement. The various holy books even contradict themselves. For instance, there’s the hilarious verse in the Bible where God can’t drive out the inhabitans of a valley, because they have iron chariots1:
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Judges 1:19
And this is the guy who created the earth, Heaven and Hell, animals and humans, light and dark? If these books were really the word of God, surely the Lord would’ve made sure they actually made sense? If God’s foundation, his holy book, doesn’t make sense, then why should the concept of God?
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The Concept of God is Incoherent
There’s never really any agreement on the exact definition of God. Many hold that God is almighty, but at the same time there are things God can’t do. Many hold that God is all-loving, but at the same time the world is full of evil. Many hold that God is all-knowing, yet God often regrets His actions. Some hold that we are all part of God, and some that the number of gods is infinite; some hold that God created the universe and walked away, and some hold that God is personal. The very concept of God is ill-defined and fuzzy to the point where one can’t really say anything useful about the concept except perhaps “beyond human”.
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Belief in God is Irrational
There’s no way to come around this. Belief in God is irrational. It defies all logic and it is not founded on evidence. The most common way to “find God” is to be taught the religion of your parents or other relatives. If you had been born in another country, your version of God would probably be different. The effect of your answer to the question “is there a God” ranges from profoundly changing your life to complete indifference. Do you really want to leave such an important decision to your heritage?
By believing in God you essentially throw away one of the most important tools we have, namely rational thought, in favor of feelings or simply social pressure.
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Belief in God Leads to a Dangerous Us Versus Them Mentality2
Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.
Steven Weinberg
Conflicts rooted in religion are probably the worst kind of conflict, and they abound through human history and even today. It leads to a dangerous us versus them mentality, and unlike other such attitudes, this kind of attitude rooted in religion is socially acceptable. It’s acceptable to draw a sharp line between believers and non-believers of your religion, but drawing the same kind of line between people with black and white skin color is not acceptable. This is very dangerous thinking, and it leads to intolerance, fear, violence, and ultimately terrorism and even war.
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The Problem of Evil
The major religions assert that God knows all, loves all, and can do pretty much everything. Still, the world is full of evil. This pretty much speaks for itself. The theists defend their God by saying that the reason for evil is that humans must have free will. Yet God, who is all-knowing, must have known what kind of world this would lead to. How can God love all people yet be willing to put them through so much misery and suffering?
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Religion is a Shield from Reality
Reality is a dangerous place to be residing in. There’s so much bad stuff in the real world, and we are so small. No wonder people dislike reality. But that isn’t a good reason to build up a shield from reality. That’s exactly what religion is. When a loved one dies, people hide away from the dark reality (the loved one is really gone, and won’t be coming back) by reciting a well learned fantasy, such as “He is in a better place,” or “She will be reincarnated into a better life” or some such. When someone does something unfair to the believer, he or she may find comfort in the thought that while those doing bad stuff will not always be punished in this life, they will certainly be in the next. When the believer faces a phenomenon he can’t explain, the natural explanation is that God did it.
The truth is, this is a mechanism for hiding from reality. It might lead some people to happiness by helping them overcome the bad stuff in life, but it also leads others to think that God has commanded them to blow up a bus or fly a plane into a building.
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God May Not Care About the World
Some people, e.g. deists, believe that God created the world and then walked away from it, or at least watches it passively. Such a God is difficult to refute, because not only does it reside outside of space and time, but all the effects it has had that we could study and test for also reside outside of space and time, if they exist at all. Why believe in a God like this?
If you believe in a God like this, it doesn’t have any implications on your life notwithstanding the simple fact that you can now claim to believe in God. Whether you believe or not, this God doesn’t care. This God is so passive that even if it has wishes for human behaviour, it has failed to communicate them, so there’s no guidance to be drawn from this belief. In any case, God isn’t likely to do anything. You can never prove it. There’s no way a deist God can have any impact on your life.
Looking at the world, it’s not difficult to see that any God must be extremely incompetent or extremely absent-minded to have left the world in the state it’s in. Even if there is a God, He sure doesn’t seem to care much about the world, or He’s to incompetent to do anything about it.
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The Argument from Incompetence
If God designed humans and other animals, why are there so many unnecessary or even harmful features of the various types of life that inhabit the earth? If God is almighty, why has He failed to fix the problems of the world? If God created the universe specifically for life, why is so much of it very hostile to and totally devoid of life? If God dictated or inspired the various holy books of the world, why are they so self-contradictory and nonsensical? If God is the source of morality, why are many of his laws so cruel?
These are all questions a theist must answer.
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Holier than Thou
Religion leads to a warped understanding of morality3. Strange rules, like not using condoms, killing people for (alleged) adultery or punishing people for teaching girls are all the result of interpreting morality through religion. The belief that ancient books should govern what is acceptable behaviour several thousand years later and in the light of all the terrible mistakes of the past is stupid. Extremely stupid. Why do Christians hate homosexuals (but not shellfish-eaters)? Why is it wrong to abuse the name of God, but not to sacrifice your son to God?
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The Gaps in Our Knowledge Will Be Filled
Traditionally, and continuing to this day, God has been placed in the areas we know nothing about and held responsible for the phenomena we don’t understand. In early times, God was responsible for the weather, health, fertility, success in war and peace and much else besides. Now, we can explain all these phenomena through natural processes and social factors. Now God is said to be responsible for the questions we haven’t yet answered, such as the origin of the universe or life, or how consciousness can arise from a biological machine. Science has been filling gaps in our knowledge since it was conceived, and it continues today. What we don’t know today we might find out tomorrow. It’s curious how religious claims have weakened while human understanding has advanced, especially if one considers religion to have the right of it and science to be only a tool to understand the marvellous work of a creator.
Our gaps will be filled. Before you start blaming God for phenomena currently beyond human understanding, take a look at history.
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Getting Caught Up in Doctrine Prevents Human Advances
Only a fool would say that science and religion aren’t incompatible. What is true is that not all of science is incompatible with all of religion. But in certain areas, they are definitely incompatible. The record of human advances brought by religion is next to none. By contrast, science still continues to advance civilization. Advances in communication has made it possible to communicate with each other from almost anywhere in the world. Advances in medicine has drastically increased life expectancy, reduced birth death rates, and has raised consciousness about the importance of healthy food and hygiene. The list goes on. How has studying ancient holy books advanced civilization?
With belief in God comes the belief in an absolute authority. From there, the road to doctrine is short for many. True, many people manage to believe in God and still reject ancient dogma, but many do not. Opposition to use of condoms to prevent HIV, or to stem cell research, both of which have the potential to save millions of lives, are examples of what comes from this attitude.
Really, how much should a belief be allowed to impair your life?
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The Mind is Easy to Trick
Baked into most religions is the notion of duality. There’s a material body, and an immaterial “soul” that exhibits free will and lives on after death. While we don’t have full understanding of the brain yet, there’s no indication that there is such a thing. If the brain isn’t “really” where thoughts and choices are formed, what’s it for? Is it just the “hardware” on which the soul runs?
The mind is easy to trick. Religious experiences can be induced by drugs or through meditation. Drugs of various kinds profoundly affect the functioning of the brain. If your brain is damaged, consciousness may fail. This is strange if consciousness really resides in the soul. The mind is easy to trick. It is, as far as we can tell, a result of natural processes and accordingly isn’t always to be trusted. Religious experiences may be nothing more than delusions of the brain.
Notes
- This is from the King James version of the Bible. Other translations have other versions of this verse. Nevertheless, the fact is that many people used this as the basis of their understanding of the Bible.
- Of course, this is less prevalent in less organized religions that emphasize meditation or a personal relationship with God to organized worship. Still, the most common form of God-belief is organized religion.
- This depends on how much weight the religion puts on ancient texts versus trusting the moral judgment of the believer, but this certainly is the case if one should follow Christianity, Islam or Judaism strictly.
Filed under: atheism, ethics, morality, philosophy, religion, superstition, theism | 47 Comments
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My favorite is number 12. I was born in Pakistan and it’s a perfect case example of a country that has be “kept back” by religious fundamentalists.
I’ll give you a perfect example: Last year I visited a friend in Pakistan – who is a lawyer there. Lawyers often act as advisers to people on non-legal matters. While in his office, a poor, middle aged man appeared and wanted to ask him a question. The question was whether he should send his 8 year old daughter to a government run school or a religious academy where the only thing she would learn is how to memorize the Quran. My friend promptly told him to send her to a normal school, if she wants any sort of future. Had he not done so, she would simply grow up illiterate with only the Quran as her guide.
I simply couldn’t believe that in the year 2006, somebody was debating this. Outrageous and sad.
Wow. That’s pretty backwards. It never ceases to amaze me how much effort is being spent on learning, spreading and studying various religious books. Some fields, scuh as pure mathematics, have been criticized for being far from the real world (actually that isn’t always such a bad thing). However, results from these fields have significance for other fields. In contrast, theology doesn’t seem to have relevance to any field, except perhaps philosophy, but the really interesting philosophical insights from theology are seldom nowadays. Also, most of those studying scripture won’t admit that what they’re doing is a kind of narrow, dogmatic philosophy.
To them, it’s about the fundamental properties of reality. To everybody else, it is mythology useful only in so far as it allows us to understand the culture of those who wrote it.
Hi.
I like your blog. Don’t know where you find the time to think and write it all…
Concerning (4) (belief is irrational): Maybe, but this is not necessarily a bad thing.
Being in love with girl A, and not girl B or girl C, D E is also quite irrational.
But we still do it.
And we think it’s good.
I think humans experience the world not only with their brains but with their whole being (feelings, senses, including senses that we don’t have names for…)
So: being rational isn’t everything… there’s more to being human than having a (very limited) brain.
Love is subjecive. The question, “is there a God?”, however, is not. Either there is a God, or there isn’t. Feelings can’t determine objective truths.
We sure do. The brain is the mechanism that makes sense of all the sensory inputs. I don’t believe in dualism between the “soul” and the body, so I believe all that is you resides in the brain. Thus you can change pretty much everything in a person without making that person someone else, except the brain.
Some of your points have merit — for example, the problem of evil is well known — but other points have no merit whatsoever. With respect to #4, belief in God is irrational —
There’s no way to come around this. Belief in God … defies all logic and it is not founded on evidence. … By believing in God you essentially throw away one of the most important tools we have, namely rational thought.
This is not a “reason” to disbelieve, it’s the very point you’re ostensibly trying to prove. In other words, the “reasoning” of point #4 is circular.
Some believers have an irrational approach to faith. Many of us study the evidence (historical evidence, for example) and practice a reasonable faith.
Elsewhere in this post, you argue that religion leads to an “us vs. them” mentality, and causes people to commit terrible evils. This is tragically true, but you need to turn the coin over and consider the other side of it as well. Faith also gives rise to people like Ghandi and Mother Teresa. And, above all, most Christians do not fall into either extreme. They live perfectly ordinary lives, with their faith gently influencing them in a positive direction.
Andrew Sullivan — a gay Roman Catholic, and therefore no friend of fundamentalists — writes:
I have met fundamentalists whose convictions are extreme but whose spiritual humility nonetheless leads them to great tolerance for dissent and doubt among others and great compassion for the needy. I have met those who are utterly uncompromising on the issue of sexual morality and yet have never shown me anything but interest, empathy and friendship. I have seen fundamentalists do amazing work for the poor and forgotten – driven entirely by their fundamentalist fervor. Try and think of how many souls and bodies the Salvation Army has saved, for example, how many sick people have been treated by doctors and volunteers motivated solely by religious conviction, how many homeless people have been taken in and loved by those seized by the fundamentalist delusion. …
My sense of the fallibility of human reason and the ineffability of God’s will leads me not to dismiss these “extremists” as fools or idiots, but to wonder what they have known that I may not know, even as I worry about their potential for evil as well as good (a potential we all have, including you and me).
Similarly, atheism can give rise to great humanitarianism, or it can give rise to Stalin’s purges. But most atheists are just ordinary people who never do anything newsworthy.
I hate to say it, but a particularly virulent form of fundamentalism is endemic to the USA. I live in Canada, and the worst excesses of fundamentalism are rarely encountered here. Most Christians don’t believe they have to throw their brains out — they accept evolution, for example, and they don’t advocate the teaching of Intelligent Design in public schools. Their faith doesn’t turn them into militants, but it does motivate them to do good unto others.
In short, you’re trying to blow up a stereotype of what Christianity is … but I admit, the stereotype may be one that you encounter in your culture.
Point #4 isn’t circular. It is well known and accepted that faith is not founded on evidence. Reasonable believers recognize this. If you have evidence for God, please present it, because that would surely be a milestone in the history of humanity.
Faith isn’t logical either. Logic isn’t subjective, but faith is. Again, if you have reason to make this claim, please back it up.
The arguments are also largely agnostic. They’re valid for Christianity, but also other religions.
Simen,
There are a number of issues with your examples, but since #4 has been focused on, let me also address it.
Would you also argue that to decide a case in the court of law, one has to “…throw away one of the most important tools we have, namely rational thought, in favor of feelings or simply social pressure?” Since you seem well read, I am sure the defense I am providing here is of no surprise to you.
The reality is that a jury in a court of law rarely can say with 100% certainty whether the accused is guilty or innocent. They have a number of reasons to believe they are one or the other, but short of those cases where the accused was caught on camera, the remaining cases require a judgment to be made. Of course, the lawyers try to sway the decision with “feelings” or “social pressure,” but it seems most cases are decided using the facts, and therefore, an interpretation of those facts using rational thought.
Now let’s be honest, even some of the most clear cut cases turn out to be wrong. And yet, you wouldn’t seriously argue that most of them are wrong, would you? And I would postulate that you probably wouldn’t argue that to make a decision in one of these cases you have to toss out rational thought, would you? No, in fact, you rely on it to weed through the evidence to make a decision. What we don’t do, however, is sit on our hands and refuse to make a decision simply because it is a tough one to make or simply because we do not have 100% certainty.
Of course, my point in this matter is clear. No one has ever proved that God exists. And yet, that does not make the decision to believe in God irrational as you suggest. It is a decision of faith, but it is also the same decision of faith – faith in a reasonably presented court case – that juries across this world make everyday.
I would expect a believer to disagree on most of these.
As for your points:
I’ve emphasized the important part here. Theists have no evidence in their favor. Belief based on evidence and belief based purely on faith are very different things. This probably deserves a post of its own, but the there’s a very essential difference between belief in evidence and belief on faith alone. In the case of the jury, they’re supposed to judge innocent if the evidence doesn’t give real indications of the opposite. If real juries do this I can’t really say, because the cases we hear about are always high-profile ones in which the verdict is well known, and that puts a certain pressure on the jury.
RE: #4 discussion – I disagree with those who contend that a conclusion regarding the existence or nonexistence of God MUST be reached by every person. In some cases, the evidence available to someone underdetermines the conclusion. In these cases, the most rational thing to do is withold belief until more evidence is brought forth.
(In a few cases, it might be rational to believe mutually contradictory things until more evidence is brought forth. For example, I believe in free will even though I believe that everything I do is in some sense determined by physical laws that govern my mental processes. To me, it is rational to believe in both determinism and free will, depending on the context, until I have more evidence to sway my belief one way or the other.)
The legal analogy from FaithfulObserver is entirely unconvincing, since a jury cannot reach a GOOD decision without GOOD evidence and he mentioned none. Science and good philosophy are exactly like law in this respect: conclusions are provisional and the facts are subject to review in the light of new evidence. If anyone has new evidence that God is real, I would be interested in it – but since the best explanation is that God is a useful fiction, my expectation level is low.
The problem with Simen’s presentation of reason #4 is that the conclusion that the belief in God being irrational is based on the other issues Simen raises. It is not truly one of the issues, but it is the ultimate conclusion if those other issues are true. If it is presented as a reason in and of itself, then it is circular – as Stephen pointed out.
Since clearly the goal is to use logic, then the reality is that Simen has not presented a very logical case. Take for instance:
#3: The coherence of our understanding of God says nothing about the existence of God. It is a logical fallacy to correlate the two.
#5: What does the “Us Verses Them Mentality” have to do with whether or not God exists? It is a logical fallacy to correlate the two.
#10: Even if religion creates the strangest of rules relating to morality, it says nothing about the validity of the religion itself. It is a logical fallacy to correlate the two.
#12: Again, whether or not religion stalls human advancement means nothing about the validity of religion. It is a logical fallacy to correlate the two.
Again, I am out of time to discuss all thirteen issues, but my point is simple. Neither side is relying on a 100% conclusion one way or the other. Neither Simen nor Michael has proved that God does not exist. Both sides are relying on arguments that would only work in the court of law. In the end, if the goal is to use logic, then Simen has to hold his own arguments accountable to that logic. I readily admit that the ultimate conclusion is one of faith, but you will have to do better than this to reduce it to pure irrationality.
Michael: one doesn’t have to be sure of the non-existence or existence of a god to believe or not believe in it. Either you believe or you don’t. Everybody either believe or don’t believe. Mnay people are unsure and have reached no conclusions about the existence or non-existence question – but they’ve all chosen some position on the question of belief or lack of it.
Regarding determinism and free will: their mutual exclusiveness is not an agreed upon matter. Whether it makes sense or not to talk about choices in a deterministic universe is not clear, either. But I digress.
FaithfulObserver: let me call attention to the beginning of this post:
In this sense, these arguments are similar to, say, Pascal’s Wager, in that they try to convince the reader to not believe while not trying to convince them that there absolutely is no god. I do consider these to be better arguments than Pascal’s wager, though, becuase the wager has numerous problems (see an earlier post on this blog). While I certainly consider some of these points to be signs of there not being a god, that’s not what I set out to prove this time. You should read them in the light of this.
Onto your points:
On this I must disagree. If the “God” concept leads to logical contradictions, then that God concept is an impossibility. There might be other God concepts that are true, though. Again, I’m asking the reader to consider this: given our current understanding of the “God” concept, is is really possible to say anything useful about God if it exists? If we can neither prove nor disprove it, and not learn anything new with it, what use is it?
This is not about existence of God, but about belief or non-belief. I’m pointing out that belief frequently divides society in a way that is ultimately harmful.
Whether a religion teaches morality or the opposite is hardly an insignificant observation about that religion. I’m not attacking that religion’s truth claims here.
I repeat: the truth claims of a religion are not based on objective criteria, but on faith. In that light, one should consider the doctrine of the religion as much as the truth claims it has before one decides to follow it. Because, even though the claims might be true, the implications need not be.
Your refutations are logical, but they’re not about my arguments, but rather your misunderstood perception of them. I thought I had made it clear in the beginning of the post that these points concern the question “Should I believe?” – not the question “Is this true?” Those are two entirely different things. I don’t think you did it on purpose, so I’m not going to yell about straw men, but your arguments are no less irrelevant.
Wow! Admittedly, I missed that preface to the post. Still, I don’t see the difference so my argument is the same.
You are effectively saying, “I’m not proving to you that God does not exist, I am just telling you why you shouldn’t believe in Him.” Isn’t the burden of proof the same either way? You are trying to use the same logic without being accountable to the standards of logic.
You argued that my points are irrelevant to the existence of a god. I admitted that my post contains no proofs that God doesn’t exist, but rather some points trying to show the reader how not believing might be beneficial to him or society in general. There’s a difference there. Whereas your objections are valid if the title of this post had been “13 Reasons Who God Doesn’t Exist”, they’re invalid when the post actually is “13 Reasons Not to Believe in God”. You said:
All of these are only valid if I was trying to disprove God.
My reasons are in various categories, and should be read as such.
Point #1 concerns, as I said above, the lack of evidence for God and is related to the existence of God. Clearly, lack of evidence is a sign that God might not exist.
Point #2 tries to show the reader that the various religious scripts are difficult tools to use to guide one’s life, because they are externally and more importantly internally inconsistent. They contain many contradictions that make it difficult to read the text literally, because it leads to paradoxes.
Point #3 questions the usefulness of a God-concept so vaguely defined that it becomes difficult to say anything about it.
Point #4 focuses on the fact that belief in God requires faith, and this faith is often based on nothing but tradition or social issues. The belief cannot be founded in logic or science, because there is no logical or scientific evidence for God.
Point #5 highlights the negative impact faith has on society.
Point #6 is a well-known argument against the existence of God, namely: how can God be all-good and all-powerful, and still create a universe knowing it will lead to all kinds of evil?
Point #7 concerns the effect religion can have on your mind; some people shield themselves from reality via religion and are motivated to do all kinds of stupid things.
Point #8 argues that even though there might be a creator, there are few signs that it is a personal one.
Point #9 points out that even if there is a creator, his creations are full of imperfections and that means the creator can’t be that good.
Point #10 shows a negative effect faith has on society.
Point #11 points out that history has shown that the holes in our knowledge where God has been put are often filled.
Point #12 lists another negative effect on society.
Point #13 points out that the mind is easy to trick, and that can explain so-called “religious” experiences.
Only points #1 and #6 concern (the probability of) the existence of God.
Simen,
I appreciate the detailed response. Don’t get me wrong, I understand what you are trying to accomplish. The problem is that your argument only works within the right context. For instance, a more appropriate heading would be, “13 Reasons Why the Belief in God is Not Useful.” In that context, the belief in God is not relevant to whether or not God exists.
In the case of your heading, the belief in God and the existence of God are practically the same because the context is based on “13 Reasons Not to Believe in God.” Perhaps I am just splitting hairs, but neither your heading nor your preface is consistent with the arguments you make. In any case, I understand your main point and it makes no sense further arguing about the heading of your post.
As for the points themselves, I will try to further discuss later. Thanks again for your time!
I believe I’ve given sufficient context. If you ahve a suggestion that might convey the meaning better, I’d be happy to consider it. However, I feel the title is appropriate. Both argumetns for the non-existence of God, the uselessness of faith in God and the negative impact belief has on the person or society are good reasons not to believe. These are all reasons I don’t believe (the overwhelmingly most important one is the first, the lack of evidence).
I don’t see how my arguments are inconsistent with my heading. These are some of the reasons I don’t believe, and that alone warrants the title.
That’s my general impression.
Simen:
I’m pointing out that belief frequently divides society in a way that is ultimately harmful.
Having completely ignored my point, that belief likewise frequently leads people to do good.
If your point is an argument for not believing, then my point is an argument for believing. But I agree with FaithfulObserver: neither argument counts for much, if the goal is to (dis)prove God’s existence. They speak only to the cost or benefit of religious faith to society — a completely different question.
It does, there’s no denying it, but the harm done outweighs the benefits by far. As far as I can see, belief leads to positive consequences on the personal level but negative consequences on the level of different societies, ultimately doing more harm than good.
And also, if you’ve followed this comment thread, the topic of this post. I’ve no aspirations to disprove God, at least not with this post.
Hello,
My name is Jack Mielke and I have spent several days now
writing a 40-page refutation to the “13 Reasons”. It
is obviously too long to put on your site, but to whom
shall I send it? I didn’t find an email address to
send it to. I can put it in PDF format so make the
transfer easier. I would appreciate a repsonse.
Best Wishes,
Jack Mielke
Jack, there is an “about” page, linked to near the top of this site (below the title and subtitle). There you can find my email address. You can mail me any response you might have that you don’t want to or can’t put in the comments section.
In point #2 you listed Judges 1:19, but this verse is not talking about the Lord, but rather Judah. It talked in the verse before about Judah and then in verse 19 stated that the Lord was with Judah as Judah drove out the mountain inhabitants, but Judah could not drive some out because they had chariots of iron.
If God couldn’t destroy chariots of Iron, how did he destroy Sodom and Gomorrah? The remains of both of these cities can still be seen today. This article of yours in not well written.
God follower, here are some other versions of this verse. Here’s one other version, in which it is clear that it’s God we’re talking about:
And in any case, this is far from the only instance in which the Bible contradicts itself.
How do you know that it wasn’t a natural disaster?
” 3. The Concept of God is Incoherent”
The reality is concept of “God” is not “obviously” defined in most religious books, exactly like the none of the Economics books defines what is “Wealth”. The Religions don’t want people to understand what is God and Economists don’t want people to understand what is Wealth.
In a big book like Bible, there is reference to God in almost every page but the definition of God appears only in one sentence! it is where Moses speaks to God, asks who are you? the definition is the answer, if you missed it, you missed the whole concept of living God in Bible……
If you still don’t get it try this link
http://www.wikimocracy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Does_God_Exist%3F
” 3. The Concept of God is Incoherent”
The reality is concept of “God” is not “obviously” defined in most religious books, exactly like the none of the Economics books defines what is “Wealth”. The Religions don’t want people to understand what is God and Economists don’t want people to understand what is Wealth.
In a big book like Bible, there is reference to God in almost every page but the definition of God appears only in one sentence! it is where Moses speaks to God, asks who are you? the definition is the answer, if you missed it, you missed the whole concept of living God in Bible…… the defnition of god is exactly same in Hindu Bhagavat Gita (story of child floting in the river appears in both Moses and Krishna stories). The concept of God should be the same in all other religions also….
If you still don’t get it try this link
http://www.wikimocracy.com/wiki/index.php?title=Does_God_Exist%3F
http://mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html
http://www.sacred-texts.com/
Study history, you will soon understand God the “collective conscience of society exists”, without that civilization cannot exit. Collective conscience evolves from “individual conscience”, history is full of names of individuals who contributed to the evolution of collective conscience like Krishna(fought wars), Abraham(abolished child sacrifice), Buddha(abolised racism), Moses(fought wars, liberated jews), Zoroaster, Mahaveer, Jesus(kicked out Money changers from Temple of Jerusalem, was killed), Mohammad(fought wars, abolished usury), Shakaracharya, Guru Govind(fought wars), Ayyappa(fought wars), Sri Narayana Guru, Hitler(fought wars against economic oppression, was killed), Gandhi(fought non-violently against economic oppression, was killed), Martin Luther King (fought non-violently against racial/economic oppression, was killed), Mother Theresa.
Collective conscience of the society is not static, it keeps evolving as the society evolves. The problem is “high priests” of society want the collective conscience to be static!
There’s no such thing as a “collective conscience”.
@Simen “There’s no such thing as a “collective conscience””
It is the “collective conscience” that prompts us to do “good deeds” that are socially acceptable, and prompts us to keep away from “bad deeds” that are socially unacceptable. Without collective conscience civilized society cannot exist, markets cannot exist, trade cannot exist….. without collective conscience why trade? why not snatch something from others, isn’t it?
When one group of people subvert social norms like fair trade, using paper currency that does not have redemption obligation in terms of food/fuel/energy (gold cannot be used for redeem paper currency because gold is also a token, it does not have usable energy essential for sustenance of life), then slowly the whole society comes to understand the scam. Then they collectively respond to thwart the unsocial behavior of fraudsters…… it is a slow process but eventually it happens.
That’s moral norms. They’re a combination of nature and nurture.
@simen “That’s moral norms. They’re a combination of nature and nurture.”
Most of the stuff we call morality did not exist initially, for eg. first born child sacrifice was “moral” before Abraham, he changed it. Note that the “collective conscience” of not sacrificing first born children came from the “individual conscience” of Abraham. The people who’s names get listed in religious scriptures are the Individuals who contribute to the evolution of the “collective conscience” of the society.
Morality is not static, it keeps changing for eg. Abraham changed the “moral” custom of sacrificing the first born, but think….. has the custom returned through Abortion? If you think it through……the “reason” why sacrificing first born was “moral” before Abraham and why abortion is “moral” today is the same……
To understand the “concept” of God you need to read the scriptures of different religions yourself http://www.sacred-texts.com/ don’t blindly believe what religious high priests “interpret” as God, it is their livelihood!
ye i dont belive in god thier is no proof of him god is just an answer for evry question that cant be answerd.
Ok, I’ll bite:
#1. Lack of Evidence – What kind of evidence are you looking for? Evidence is all around you. You yourself are evidence.
#2. Contradictions of Scripture – Your reading comprehension skills lack in your example. Judah couldn’t drive them out – not God. Judah was a man.
#3. The Concept of God is Incoherent – So let me get this straight – because I can’t understand you – who you are or where you’re coming from – you don’t exist? (I’m not saying atheists don’t exist – I’m saying you as a being does not exist.) You don’t seem coherent to me?
#4. Belief in God is Irrational – I’ll agree to a point. I think it is irrational because we can’t understand Him. But, it is more irrational to deny he exists based upon the evidence of life found in nature and creation.
#6. Belief in God Leads to a Dangerous Us Versus Them Mentality2 – Ok, so the creation makes void the existence of a creator because of their violent mentality?
#7. Religion is a Shield from Reality – I would challenge your view and definition of reality. Who defines reality?
#8. God May Not Care About the World – “May” is a pretty big word. Who gets to determine whether or not God cares – and who gets to set the standard?
#9. The Argument from Incompetence – Again I would ask you who gets to define competence? Are you judging that God does not exist from your limited point of view? I think the short answer to your questions is that God determined what was good, but man chose evil. Man chose their own way. What kind of creator would micromanage His creation – demanding love and perfection while denying free choice. This is the kind of God you are defining. But if this was God – I’ll bet you would probably have a problem with that God too?
#10. Holier than Thou – Again, so the creation makes void the existence of a creator because of their warped views of morality?
#11. The Gaps in Our Knowledge Will Be Filled – That will be the day! When we can prove with “evidence” how the universe and life began – and then recreate it!
#12. Getting Caught Up in Doctrine Prevents Human Advances – This makes no sense? So because men get caught up in petty arguments – that proves that God doesn’t exist?
#13. The Mind is Easy to Trick – Now this one, I’d have to agree with you, but I think we’d come to different conclusions!
I don’t mean to be mean or rude, but I was not overly impressed with your scholarly explanation on why we should not believe. You focused most of your energy on the actions of man – the creation as an excuse not to believe?
Heretic, I’ve deleted one of your comments. It was totally off-topic. Please keep your comments within the topics that this blog covers.
As for your on-topic comment: did you miss the first paragraph? Here:
I’m fully aware that disproving every god concept is impossible, but that doesn’t mean that we should believe in them.
Scientific evidence. A god that intervenes with the universe is bound to leave some evidence that’s possible to investigate scientifically.
“The Lord” is the subject. Besides, this is far from the only one.
People mean different things when they talk about God, even when they belong to the same religion. And no one wants to give an exact definition.
See the first paragraph of the post, quoted in this comment.
My definition of reality? Well, imaginary beings are not part of reality, for instance.
The point is this: even if you could prove that the universe could only have come to be via a god, that doesn’t mean that god is a personal one.
A perfect God wouldn’t put so many imperfections in his creation, would he? Why are humans so fragile? What about parts of our body that we don’t need, like the tail bone? Etc, etc.
Again, first paragraph.
Basically, history should teach us that we shouldn’t posit a god just because we don’t have the explanation yet.
First paragraph…
The most important reason is obviously the lack of evidence.
The story of Coca-Cola origins was on topic. If you took the time to read it, it shows the absurdity of suggesting that the universe and life itself exists apart from a creator. Just as simply as coca-cola had to have a creator – so did you. That is the obvious evidence you have overlooked. After all, you are a lot more complex than a simple can of Coke!
No, it was not. You could have made your point just as easily by writing what you did now.
Anyway, that is not evidence and will never be. I know why I exist, and can sum it up in a single word: evolution.
Your intellectual reason is more absurd than suggesting that Coke created itself.
But, as I’ve said before, you certainly are entitled to your dogmatic opinion.
Blessings!
That’s not a valid critique. Until you have a valid, scientific critique, I’ll regard you as a dogmatic, eyes-closed faith head.
Very well – I accept! God bless!
Ah, Finally a Athiest who has a “reason” to be an atheist…I was an atheist before until I understood God and He literally came unto my life..I think I can help you out here though lemme see
Reason 1
“There’s no evidence for God whatsoever.” I said the same thing infact I went as far as to say we created the idea of God, and that old history doesn’t mean that something is true, and also that if God really was real why is it that we can not see him nor can he show himself, millions of reasons I had but I’ll hint this to you consider the complexities of life, and I don’t just mean how it happens why it all happens? From the details of cells, to the animals that so happen to be the way that they are and indeed proven by science they “adapt” now if you believe that all this is a chance I believe that you like me before are more religious than any one else, for the fact that all these things happen and life is by “chance” than that belief is spiritual..but also remember that if there is chance than there is no certanty so if you say we are here by chance than you have to say the chances of us being here in this state and also being correct about everything is slim. Because my friend Validity does not prove something to True. Science is indeed valid if you base things on perspective but if why do you think that they themselves have no clear answer also for “why”? only “how” we are here and If you have never read the whole book than that is literally judging a book by its cover, forget about religion your right about when you speak of people being religious of course if you seek something you know you cant rely on word of mouth otherwise youll miss the point so instead of speakin on something you have no “evidence” for read it yourself…I assure you if you don’t understand and truly wanna find out “truth” that Bible reveals a certain “understanding” and that is the evidence you need because my friend if you are unable find evidence one way try something else otherwise you will simply never get it….”if you wanna know an apple is an apple you can either see it or taste it or smell it that is your evidence…well try reading the whole thing and keep in mind that it has its own “language” so you can understand only by reading and answering with the book itself then afterwards Go and compare your new understanding to what you thought before…you will find that everything makes perfect sense…because ones inablilty to understand the word doesn’t mean that the word is wrong So your right don’t believe them go read it yourself otherwise your just speaking of something you don’t know about…and only what you hear..your evidence depends on your own bias or ability to learn Proverbs says the Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom….well think about that when you read if you read and you’ll see why
REASON 2
again don’t be so bias when you read because you will lose your opportunity to learn so make sure that you compare scriptures and see the truth of this
1. And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Judges 1:19
“he” wasn’t referreing to God it was referring to Judah who when God speaks he refers a entire group as one person or one body just like when people call a family “the Johnson’s” one body but it meant that though God was with “man” Man was incapible of driving them out…But again Read the entire thing and Know the whole thing because picking portions of it to prove it wrong is like a christian jumping into science and saying things about Darwin when further evidence has been updated 7 fold…but you know your questioning reminds me of myself before I tell you if you read the thing you really wont regret it. and It does speak of all and more than you ask(other gods other religions even athiests or agnostics) it all is there from then all the way unto now!
REASON 3
There’s never really any agreement on the exact definition of God. Many hold that God is almighty, but at the same time there are things God can’t do.
Good point, again you have to read the whole bible to understand, but to say that God is unable to do something is a big step take that back to choosing not do do something…God is not like us understand that if we say “why did you kill my brother” than we become angry at God or life our ouselves because we have not known that God does what he wants..I mean he is God He did create us…and it is true that it was over billions of years process as depicted by scientist but all for a reason If you say God is wrong than you havnt began to fear Him and begin to understand the real reason why things happen…but again Read it all and I promise you will not be sorry and you will see that the Word of God is nothing at all what people have made it to be. But how can a person define God we can’t even define ourselves nor can we have a certain reason other than “perspective faith” which we call “facts” saying that its provin by calculations we create or saying that something is right according to what the eye can see..maybe you should study something called “premises” and see these sorts of things then you will know why science is valid but not completely true your definition lies in you reading the bible and taking scriptures and seeing if one witnesses to the next ..but that is up to you…I would say don’t cheat yourself from this understanding its much deeper than anything I studied from the mayan calender, to dark matter in science, or even black wholes…read it and you’ll see for your self and if you have Hard questions email me..I’m sure God will me or someone the best explaination to tell you without telling you…(HUH?? WHAT??) that’s right He does this all on purpose you are disbelieving for a good reason because The Lord My God wants to see if you will believe in him with all the oppurtunities He’s throwing at you Hes Gonna pick you and other people who critisize him so much to believe in Him and show people who He really is? Why?? Because people who claim to believe and where raised in the word are too focused on Organized religion and treat God like he is religion but my friend you will soon see that you will be his Tool for reaching people just as I have become..but that all lies in your decision will you read and pray and believe or will you shut down the chances?? Again,your evidence begins when you read it for yourself rather to prove him wrong or not…Read
REASON 4
There’s no way to come around this. Belief in God is irrational. It defies all logic and it is not founded on evidence.
Ahh my favorite one…because I used to Hit christians in the head with this one…There’s No proof only faith, It makes no logical sense!!! First my friend lets start with Logic! Logic is the big stumbling block for all people who disbelieve because we can not fathom something we do not understand and if it doesn’t Go along with what we have “proven” than its not true. Logically It is impossible for us to be here my friend, I’m sorry but If you go and study Special relativity(not Theory its based off of perspective so scientist keep having errors they don’t know how to see things without seeing..lol) and then Study Cells and their history and behavior and move along into Evolution into the complexities of a Big Bang which is by far more spiritual than anything Ive every read..lol We came from no where just a BIG BANG!!! And then here we are by chance…Don’t believe them…but take out the “valid” details that are facts and set it aside and compare it to everything else…I mean why sit here and not find out the truth If you are a truth seeker Like I was than you will Put in work for these things and come to find that Indeed it is impossible “logically” for life to go on like this and even more to even begin in the first place but then that’s when you apply your biblical “understanding” which the spirit will idneed reveal to you If you are seeking Him for what ever reason God will make you eat your crow and then send you to bring other people to this “awareness” not by telling them but by showing them…which is why I am avoiding concrete asnwers otherwise you will miss the purpose Read it. But to make a long story short I hope….If man created logic and we are imperfect how can we say something is “true” no matter mow much studying and calculating we put in Im sorry we are only Man so we will ascend as far as man can Go but when you realize the undertone to your life and reason and see that its not a “coiincidince” and that it is spiritual to believe that by chance we are here and by chance things happen as they do and by chance complexities of life are still being questioned….by keep this in mind…Logic is a perspective so I would say learn to understand out side of that and recognize your own bias if you havnt already inorder to see things for what they are…I am not bias for saying I believe God is true and Real and that the Word is real because I never believed it in the first place..but It proves itself to be true after much reading…humbling..prayer..and change and ofcourse conquering that “Logical” mind left brained mentality that It is what it is and its no reason for it just happens to be that way…people who say these things havent read..and Look I know a lot of people who Never read before and as they begin to read and see the truth of things through this “secret” understanding only found in the Bible….but just open your mind to it and consider it and you will be soooooooo glad you read it..rather it is to say Gods not true(unless you’re a complete moron theres no way you will read the whole thing and then not understand the message) or to humble yourself and admit that God is real and to serve the Lord my God and believe in him…but I will wait for the person to read it to talk to them about prophecy and the truly Deep things we all search for
There’s no way to come around this. Belief in God is irrational. It defies all logic and it is not founded on evidence
REASON 5
LOL!!!! I don’t blame you for that one…its true though…which is the main reason why you Read for yourself and know the Truth…Like I said its one thing to criticize God for what people tell you but when you havent even read the whole word to understand it all than you will simply not get it(even christians today don’t read like they should instead they commit more crimes than athiests..because nowdays “everyone” is christian..but If you know the word and believe that Jesus christ was God manifest into the flesh because we were so incapable of understanding him that He had to do it to save your soul…which science seems to leave alone kind of like the “heart” and reasons for emotion….they have no Concrete explanaition…but they can talk about anything but something simple as this..If they would read then they would see and understand…”you have faith taking tylenol” did you know that when they create the products to test what it does they mix different drugs together and give it to various different people in a room and people are healed of there sickness with no knowledge of what kind of pill works for what but just that it works…look it up sometime…they don’t even let the Docs know the type of pill otherwise they would never know what works for what…but I cant imagine someone saying “take this it will heal your headache” and I drink some plain water mixed and say..”boy it worked”..lol…I tell you we prove God in so many ways but peoples eyes are not open to see it…meaning they just don’t understand….lemme give you an example and maybe crush your logical stumbling block
John 1-13 (If you read it by itself it will make no sense to you especially if you have no understanding of the “language” of it but if you compare it to other scriptures you gain “enlightement” understanding to read the rest of the book in a new way unto you reach the point that you see it completely for what it is anot not just mere words, try a concordance, but furthermore…
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Now take verse 1 of john and compare to something else you should have read
Genesis 1-5
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
With your first approach you will say it makes no sense but after comparing several times and finding more witnesses than these here you will gain a complete understanding to this mystery. Just read and compare.
~The light is Jesus Christ who is God manifest in the flesh and, also Day isn’t day that we know in our terms it is a type but see logic still says how could God create himself? Or Why? But again I apologize for not providing the whole answer…because people always want someone to tell them to have an “easy” answer…well sorry but I want you to read it yourself. Me telling you isn’t doing me any good…But just consider this when comparing Leave logic at a distance better yet get a biblical concordance so that you can know when to take things literally or not. And then you will be on your way!(consider that termonolgies don’t mean the same then that they do now so if your serious about finding the truth Get a concordance and read and compare they are about 10-20 bucks now days)
REASON 6
How can God love all people yet be willing to put them through so much misery and suffering?
Very very good one….God would do that would he? The notion that God is eual to us or what we believe he is like is the reason we lack understanding in the first place he says
Isaiah 5:8
8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts
So we should recognize that “Logically” everything we do think, etc is of Logic and people are crazy in the world and there is much evil in the world but its not his Fault its “our choice” and He suffers like we suffer as a Dad would suffer..imean think about it..people say why didn’t he “kill” the devil then?? Come on now seriously, If you had a son and he said he hated you and when on that path that you know just about all sons go on to rebel and destroy his life would you up and kill him(speaking as a man) so how and why would god do this to you will read and find that it says “he desires mercy not sacrifice” So believe that while God is great for creating everything he is Great for dealing with us and our inability to understand him..We went from not understanding him to disbelieving he’s there and now even christians Treat the Real Life only God sitting back in the midst and soon to reveal his self(His words He will be here soon and All will see but of course by then it will be too late) Treating him like he isnt there…imagine Coming home and everyone treating you like your not there at all and you do everything you can to show them your there but they just cant see you…what makes it worst is to hear the things people would say about you when your not around….God isn’t tryna Rule over you by power…he wants us to willingly submit and say you are God that’s why he allows all this
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.
He even does these things on purpose because He is God…its simple…And when you realize the truth you will be saved…but He isn’t out to kill or burn you for the rest of eternity. Read and you will see that is not true…but rather to Destroy your agonized soul to put you out of suffering…So you will see his mercy even in judgment when you see the feircness of His wrath that Is if you don’t believe by that time..but again hes not out to force anyone…he is sitting back sending people to you….ad some people are not even sent they are of the other guy who wants to scramble the truth and prevent you from seeing this…I’mean think about it…”dark ages” do you think that was for no reason? Do you think that because we didn’t know what was happening that other people around the world at that time didn’t know either??? Even historians are starting to wonder if technology was more advanced then we think then..Furthermore…but sticking to the script….God is God and we should learn to see in this wa..otherwise you’ll simply never get it…There is no other God besides him…If you cant believe which God is true than you should learn more about history…I suggest reading the book series by Will Durrant such as the History of Philosophy, etc.etc…you will find that God has stayd the same but certain pagan believes or other believes have stemmed from the truth and because they are the oldest “known” religions then they are considered right…but I tell you read it for yourself and do you studying…everything relates to everything…don’t be fooled by what scietists nor religious leaders say..you will find even Dinasours mentioned in the bible(Job 41:19 I believe talks about a Behemoth and these idiots think it’s a hippopotomus but you read it and tell me if a hippo has a tail like a Cedar???..lol)…you really will be shocked at the “understanding” in the bible if you read..read…read..read!!! that’s all the evidence you need
REASON 7
Yep “religion” is but you see if you are of the world then these things will happen…of course you will still have bad happen even if you are righteous. you will see this when you reading…but God is not a religion…though he is made to be like this He is simply God and when you sit down and think about it…where are you going?? Imean when you die what is after that? I advise you read about parasites and maybe you’ll have an understanding of this body and its limitations…there shouldn’t be a me against you attitude in any thing I think that you are a Good kid even if your not but I know that I was like you and was an atheist indeed a very very Certain atheist at that but when I read I finally Got it and now I want other people who don’t believe to see it…because I know that when you search for something and you can’t find it after a while you will think that its not there…but when you give up searching an that very person comes searching for you you will not believe but “Know” there is God and He is the only God. I don’t believe in any religion, I don’t have one I just know there is a God you can call me a Christian…but today I would say I am not but I work for him to reveal this understanding..and then when you get that He himself will Give you the knowledge, My friend don’t study what people say or what is told to be true…study the Truth, Study what is constant..and what proves itself to be true…not just valid but Sound meaning all factors even later factors prove something true and not one is wrong or off…(reason why evolution wont work because its valid but not sound neither is BIG BANG!!! That just makes me bag up thinking I used to believe in that whole thing and never stopped to think..BIG BANG!!! Rashad is here!!!!..lol
REASON 8
Even if there is a God, He sure doesn’t seem to care much about the world, or He’s to incompetent to do anything about it.
you know what I see in you….light…much much light…funny thing is that I am certain now that you if you choose to read will be AMAZING!!! Unblievable….a person who cares about people…..even if you do things wrong with the work of you hands..you’ll see these things don’t matter to god. but it’s the light within you that will become aware after you see the truth or if you havent already….You will read and see that God is in pain for all of this..and though he has power to end it..which he will very soon he is in pain very hurt in bitter pain more than you and I could ever imagine over His people being hurt and doing so much evil things…..and you see when Jesus died….you will read and see it is symbolic for something I can’t speak of just read and see….but yes It’s because you said that or think that that quite soon he will come into your life rather you are going through now im not sure but I do know you are Going to go through a lot until the point that you recognize him and see that he is God and then you will serve the Lord your God and prophecy to other people and testify that He is real…not because you gave in, or because you had no answers, but because you will “understand” what your purpose is…and that is when your going to be a very dangerous man….but you will see why I said God will use a sinner or a person who was against him to do his work because you have the experience…..imagine God saying to a christian(your christian do my work) that’s to difficult they believe in him good..but they don’t serve him like they should nor do they submit to him as much as you will teach people to after your experience.
REASON 9
Again it will take reading, but you will soon understand that These things were and are under our control but thanks to a certain man you lost this power and now thanks to jesus you gained it back….to make it easy on you start studying symbolism if you can in the bible and im sure you’ll find that symbolism is all through out life, even we are symbols that’s why its so easy for Jesus to speak in parables because He’s a Genius for creating life like this with the details and symbols..imean even the little insect that looks like a leaf….its amazing..a symbol…everywhere you look from your nose to you eye to your facial exprecions symbols, everything stands for something that stands for something…even colors…so when you reach that point of understanding youll see why even light has symbolism and why its colors work the way they do and that God is indeed more awesome for creating all these..but thanks to us we caused a lot of things to go wrong and I can’t reveal the symbolism in Genesis to you but I say that you should indeed read and enlighten yourself you will need it in the time of trouble to come
REASON 1O
Not sure of your question but I do know that rules are a big stumbling block also, people always want to enforce rules on someone because they have to do it they think you ought to also, but listen when you read if you truly are of God you wont desire to do wrong it is in ignorance that people are evil and wicked and when you come to the light you wont want to do these things, even if you know not to do those things and do them anyway you will feel bad about it and truly be sorry for doing them because God governs all and has appointed rules before but when you read you will see these ruls have changed with the coming of jesus Christ now it is in your nature… if your are a child of darkness you will do wrong think wrong or see wrong…you are a child of the light doesn’t mean you wont sin..dont let a Christian tell you that but read and you will see that all fall short of the glory and that we all sin, even these overly religious hypocrites who shout and point the finger and create the us against them attitude…its not the way it should be they aren’t doing the right job….they should be humble and have humility and willing to hear people out…they were the main reason I was certain of my reason for Disbelieving in God but please Do read and with an open mind not bias but open..not conclusive but will to hear..Read and you will see..and then you will believe
REASON 11
Science is not bad at all neither is studying other things we are on this earth for a reason not to just be robots imean if God would have wanted robots he would have made them, but remember that if something is not sound than its not true…and when you read and see what God says about us and himself everything is sound with it…even science….its funny…even prophecy Allexander the great in the book of Daniel even most Christians don’t catch that one but its all about reading it is designed for you to know God and obtain understanding why do you think Einstein spoke of God and uttered things that people still haven’t caught…you have scientists who are atheists following in his work but don’t know where it all started from…go and find these things out..the word says “Lack of knowledge is why people are being killed” because they don’t know him…..haven’t even begin to search for Him, just wrote him off as unreal and went about there business and most of the time he’s a few steps away before they do these things.
REASON 12 AND 13
I am gona skip and cover them both since I’m running short for time but if you read and understand than you will find that Human advanced can be found though the knowledge of God when you completely know what faith is and not just what people speak of it and how it works then you will slowly get the picture remember what I said about Einstein check that out you’ll get the picture, but as for the mind lemme help you again to understand this…you and I have been thinking physically so long and have only known logical and what is “material” that that’s all you see trapped in that mentality..believing that after this there is nothing..but Read Corinthians 15:40-50 he briefly discusses the Body so that if you apply it to science(true science) and compare it is sound…There are differences in our body and its functions (consider what I spoke of earlier as far as parasite) then you will see what I mean but anyways The brain is for the functions of this body to use on this level but when you begin to reach other levels you will see things a lot clearer…again Logic isn’t to be applied to everthing..that was my biggest weakness not able to escape logic…not able to see past what man has came to understand….ventue in history..study other religions as well…youll see that God has an undertone that doesn’t change but his word is what is true..and it all has and will continue to come to pass..I’m not tryna preach just hope that someone who was like me will wake up to do wonders For God when they see the truth…I still get criticized by “Christians” and I am considered one today…..but myfreidn I tell you when you humble yourself and try it….as a matter of a fact rather it sound crazy or not…you should have saw me the first time tryna pray how stupid I felt…But try it…and believe it and mean it…and then keep your eyes open and look for the answer to your prayer..rather physical or in a dream…a symbol..or in someone “coincidently speaking of something to you…you will get your answer. God is whispering but sometimes were so loud we just don’t here him…and what he’s doing in our lives…you soon will though
~God bless and Seek truth
Rashad, you, like many others, fail to understand. Sceince provides some answers. Some answers it cannot provide. This is no reason to start positing imaginary beings as explanations. The tooth fairy is more credible than God. After all, a lot more have actually experienced it. Science doesn’t say we “got here all by chance”. Please, go read up on it or refrain from posting such ignorant comments. I see that your faith has deluded you. Fine. It will not delude me, however.
“The brain is the mechanism that makes sense of all the sensory inputs. I don’t believe in dualism between the “soul” and the body, so I believe all that is you resides in the brain.”
You ever created anything?
You ever made a decissions?
Do you believe in “stimulus-response” theorie?
Do you believe that you have an own will?
I would be interested in your answers about that.
“The brain is the mechanism that makes sense of all the sensory inputs. I don’t believe in dualism between the “soul” and the body, so I believe all that is you resides in the brain.”
You ever created anything?
You ever made a decissions?
Do you believe in “stimulus-response” theorie?
Do you believe that you have an own will?
Is something wrong with the scientific concept of cause and effect?
Yes.
Yes.
Haven’t heard of it.
No and yes. I don’t believe in a “free will” that is free from the laws of nature. However, I consider the “choice” term to be meaningful even with cause and effect.
No.
Wow. A lengthy discussion.
I’m glad there are people who still think these days. Thinking is hard. But think on both sides- perhaps you might discover something.
Regarding the 13 reasons-
I can’t refute them all- I’m not going to try. I’m impressed you took the time to come up with these.
One question, and I don’t mean to sound rude.
Why are you wasting your time? Attempting to persuade people there is no God? If you believe there is not, and consequently refuse to believe in anything after this life, why don’t you leave us to our own thoughts and go out and cherish the moments while you’re here? This life is short. Don’t you agree?
~best wishes~
Why do I bother blogging at all?
I don’t know.
Why do people bother to discuss a question that will never be conclusively answered?
I don’t know.
Perhaps because people’s idea of what cherishing life is about differs. Perhaps because people enjoy knowing truth. Perhaps because people enjoy thinking, period.
Sorry if I offended you, please don’t give up Simeon. anyways well speak in terms of Science and Law. Okay, Simeon this is no trick to win you to believe but you should ask yourself some serious questions and remember that if you conclude your question with out the answer proving itself meaning that if you “believe” in what you believe regardless of the proof that would just mean that you are blocking yourself from learning and remaining bias but since you seem like you have a good ear I doubt youll prevent yourself from learning infact Im certain you will find the truth sooner or later. But clear your mind of the “word of mouth of God” clear your mind of the “word of mouth” of science and study them both if you havent already you will find that the bible is sound and that science truly proves God to be more real. But instead of throwing what other christians I’m sure through on you “nonsenses” I’ll give you logic
1. You know their is proof of evolving overime even I know this so hat does this prove that god doesnt exisist or that we simply evolved? and from what? now when you say we evolved where did we evolve from we must go to the point of questioning how did things come to be as they are. because “logically” nothing can just pop up out of no where so thinking in terms of “chance” you have to be true and not bias so ask yourself if you believe in chance than you have to admit their is a rather slim chance of the exsistence of God. And furthermore you must also state that If everything apeared from nothing by chance(even though it happened when scientist predicted it happened some 1,000 billion years ago or so and the earth roughly 400 billion) than why at that time? why happen then with all the infite nothingness why suddenly then? so move along to ask yourself if there was a chance that all this happened from nothingness a big bang from nothing out of nothing just happened and we were lucky enough to have life then as ridiculous as it seems that there is a God is it not more riddiculous to create equations based on what we don’t know and have “faith” in it like evolution and its complexities. my friend I don’t want you to suddenly become christian, but the point is to think of all these things thouroughly because one guy told me that he believed in chance and I said add all the factors and indeed he did and I told him is it not a chance that your wrong? how can you assume through perspective we are right about anything afterall you should go home but becare maybe your house will dissapear and though he laughed and got the point I was upset to think that people believe in things for “no reason” You might say theres no god, and that science proves him wrong, logicaly speaking or shal i say Rationally speaking, but if you attack the same very ration you use to found and govern our society than science is more religious than any religion I know, Lemme give you an example: you know that we have minds and we still don’t know all that we can do with them nor do people understand the true functions and relationship of the heart with emotions but when it comes to our background knowledge of what we know indeed it is concrete but it is not thoroughl true because we do not know everything so thus we can successfully fill in missing gaps. But there is a problem we still are searching for answers.
2.)I know that you are searching for some kind of answer, well you have to go through with it if you think its a waste of time to read or at least question what you think you know dont you think you will be stuck thats the whole point of seeking truth. if you want the truth you have to look for it, now Simeon what sense does it make to look in the same spot over and over and over, haven’t you said before to yourself you lost something and looked everywhere for it but maybe the idea came to you to look in a riddiculous spot and what do you say? if you want it bad enough you will go look other wise you wiill do like I did and criticize somethin I never knew about. Now clear your mind of the smoke and mirrors but if this does anything for you ask yourself why I being an athiest and with much much understanding of science suddenly change and believe in God. I mean my friends say I’m brainwashed before..lol..but what happened to them when they read it for themselves other than admitting “i didnt expect this” how the heck did they know this” who wrote this….lemme give you an example my friend of “secret knowledge hidden in what would seem “senslessness”
Isaiah 40:22
It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:!!!!!!
this is just a small example, my friend the maunscripts to these are thousands of copies and its dating Is around 700 or so B.C so you know they did not discover that the earth was round that long ago….how is i that if you see the origianl documents which say the same thing and of course you can read todays translations you will find it written and yet overlooked even in that time perion heres one more would wan to “spoil” your understanding
Job 40:15-24
5 ¶ Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16 Lo now, his strength [is] in his loins, and his force [is] in the navel of his belly.
17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18 His bones [are as] strong pieces of brass; his bones [are] like bars of iron.
19 He [is] the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his
sword to approach [unto him].
20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22 The shady trees cover him [with] their shadow; the willows of the brook
compass him about.
23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, [and] hasteth not: he trusteth that he
can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
24 He taketh it with his eyes: [his] nose pierceth through snares.
again another overlooked misunderstood context that speaks of a discription of what we know today to be “dinosaurs” and as you can probably see if you have knowledge in that background it shoud be a brontosaurus to prove that you have to again witness scriptures that describe and build this understanding of what it hints to(yes of course the bible doesnt focus on giving you knowledge like science it focuses on your understanding so that with this understanding combined with your knowledge of science you can build) but anyways here are scriptures descrubing what “cedars” were like at this time……
Psalms 92:12 The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree: he shall grow like a cedar in Lebanon (would this verse make much sense if it were referring to a small or medium sized tree?)
Isaiah 2:13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, [that are] high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
Isaiah 37:24 By thy servants hast thou reproached the Lord, and hast said, By the multitude of my chariots am I come up to the height of the mountains, to the sides of Lebanon; and I will cut down the tall cedars…
Ezekiel 17:22 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also take of the highest branch of the high cedar, and will set [it]; I will crop off from the top of his young twigs a tender one, and will plant [it] upon an high mountain and eminent:
Ezekiel 31:3 Behold, the Assyrian [was] a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.
Amos 2:9 Yet destroyed I the Amorite before them, whose height [was] like the height of the cedars, and he [was] strong as the oaks; yet I destroyed his fruit from above, and his roots from beneath.
Do you see that the religious idiots of today who say it was a hippopotamous lack scientific and scriptural understanding so they assume it was a hipp but look closely the tail being like cedars with these descripions is Huuuuge!!! and it is funny that our studies and discoveries of dinasuars comfirm that they indeed eat herbal type of tings!!!!!!
anyways try it out
peace
Yeah, so…
After, reading most of the posts (Rashad excluded… seriously 18 lines without a period TLDR) I appreciate the difference of opinion. While, TV may not be the preferred form of information I watch Discovery and random Christian channels. While, The Discovery shows are much easier to watch. I find the same message in both views, why do you (dis)believe. The only difference being on the Christian channels they are more likely to let you keep believing if you already do (donations welcome).In my personal life I find even my faithful friends willing to to disavow the self proclaimed prophets on TV. In my opinion anyone can find something in the scriptures that’s worth believing in (seems to be the just of most Christian religions). The only reason I even bothered to respond is something my Mother said today. “I just don’t understand evolution.” So, she believes in God. If nothing else the initial post questions the belief in God based solely believing what someone wrote. My hats off to all those who replied. I applaud anyone who believes or doesn’t as long as they have the conviction to back it up.
No offense, but the 18 unconvincing arguments were much better. Almost all of your logic here depends on a straw man of religion. Sorry
No offense, Fr Iain, but your comment’s logic depends on a straw man of mine. I won’t point it out, though, since that would be, like, an argument, and I see you’re not a fan of those.